The ending I was shooting for was more appreciation of people like Patri, especially those in this community, and both inspiration and caution regarding agency. Its really really really hard, and some people do it. If you try it and you’re not used to it, you’ll probably fail immediately. This is to be expected, and if you really want to be an agent, you don’t give up and let that stop you, like it would for most people.
In all seriousness, though, why bother? As long as there are colossi striding the world, what possible affect will us mere mortals have?
In general, agency provides its own rewards. I’m more curious what kind of teleological narrative us mere mortals can maintain, in the face of people who are simply objectively better than us at getting shit done no matter what?
What influence do average people have on anything that actually matters, compared to people like Patri or Eliezer?
As someone who has met Patri and Eliezer (and many other heroes besides), I can tell you this: they are men of flesh and blood, with their own insecurities and fears. And I can tell you that they cannot do it alone—why else would Patri have started the Seasteading Institute, or Eliezer Less Wrong? They have both put significant labor into building communities, support networks, and organizations because they need the help of ‘average people’.
They are impressive. Let’s strive to emulate their best qualities. But to the extent that we wait in the shadows, waiting for for them to fix the world for us, we also sabotage their efforts. They need us. They need you.
I’d also recommend you take a look at this diagram.
That assumes that the individual is in control of their own mindset.
Mindsets arise through an interaction of the individual and their environment. The individual’s social environment, in particular, plays a strong role in determining one’s view of challenges and opportunities, of flaws and capabilities, and of agency and fate.
In the absence of warmth, sunlight, nutrients and water, a seed will not grow, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and hardy seed. In the absence of resources and adequately-scaled challenges, a mind will not flourish, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and clever mind.
You sound like you’re making excuses for not trying to do things. It seems like you’re trying to defend your belief that you’re incapable, because admitting that you don’t have to be would mean you’d a) have to do something difficult like try things, b) have to face the potential for failure, and c) have to admit that you’ve been wasting your time working on things that don’t matter as much as what you could be working on.
Secondly—Less Wrong isn’t the worst environment for nurturing your mindset. For all the inaction we have around here, we at least have some pretty good memes (see the Challenging the Difficult sequence).
Anyway—I think you’ll improve your mindset as soon as you want to. I’m going to get back to trying to help.
My sense was that he was discussing one’s ‘environment in general’, and I was recommending thinking of LW as part of his environment, since it has some good memes. I wasn’t trying to correct a misunderstanding of LW, but rather encourage him to absorb good memes from LW.
Colossi are better at getting shit done when surrounded by a legion of supporters, than when alone. Any given member of that legion may be interchangeable or even ultimately dispensable, but each has a marginal contribution to make.
True. I guess my own personal narrative has taught me to be extremely distrustful of any role where I am ultimately dispensable and interchangeable—I’m tired of being reassigned to bus-axle greasing duties while the bus is still rolling.
In all seriousness, though, why bother? As long as there are colossi striding the world, what possible affect will us mere mortals have?
In general, agency provides its own rewards. I’m more curious what kind of teleological narrative us mere mortals can maintain, in the face of people who are simply objectively better than us at getting shit done no matter what?
What influence do average people have on anything that actually matters, compared to people like Patri or Eliezer?
As someone who has met Patri and Eliezer (and many other heroes besides), I can tell you this: they are men of flesh and blood, with their own insecurities and fears. And I can tell you that they cannot do it alone—why else would Patri have started the Seasteading Institute, or Eliezer Less Wrong? They have both put significant labor into building communities, support networks, and organizations because they need the help of ‘average people’.
They are impressive. Let’s strive to emulate their best qualities. But to the extent that we wait in the shadows, waiting for for them to fix the world for us, we also sabotage their efforts. They need us. They need you.
I’d also recommend you take a look at this diagram.
That assumes that the individual is in control of their own mindset.
Mindsets arise through an interaction of the individual and their environment. The individual’s social environment, in particular, plays a strong role in determining one’s view of challenges and opportunities, of flaws and capabilities, and of agency and fate.
In the absence of warmth, sunlight, nutrients and water, a seed will not grow, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and hardy seed. In the absence of resources and adequately-scaled challenges, a mind will not flourish, even if it is (genetically) a perfectly formed and clever mind.
You sound like you’re making excuses for not trying to do things. It seems like you’re trying to defend your belief that you’re incapable, because admitting that you don’t have to be would mean you’d a) have to do something difficult like try things, b) have to face the potential for failure, and c) have to admit that you’ve been wasting your time working on things that don’t matter as much as what you could be working on.
Secondly—Less Wrong isn’t the worst environment for nurturing your mindset. For all the inaction we have around here, we at least have some pretty good memes (see the Challenging the Difficult sequence).
Anyway—I think you’ll improve your mindset as soon as you want to. I’m going to get back to trying to help.
I believe Ialdabaoth is referring to other environmental factors, not Lesswrong.
My sense was that he was discussing one’s ‘environment in general’, and I was recommending thinking of LW as part of his environment, since it has some good memes. I wasn’t trying to correct a misunderstanding of LW, but rather encourage him to absorb good memes from LW.
Colossi are better at getting shit done when surrounded by a legion of supporters, than when alone. Any given member of that legion may be interchangeable or even ultimately dispensable, but each has a marginal contribution to make.
True. I guess my own personal narrative has taught me to be extremely distrustful of any role where I am ultimately dispensable and interchangeable—I’m tired of being reassigned to bus-axle greasing duties while the bus is still rolling.